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  #51  
Old 04-08-2005, 03:59 AM
DaddyLongLeg DaddyLongLeg is offline
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Default Re: God and Jesus


Hi ozz

Ah, which book are you quoting from? I have a King James Version and from what I understand the KJ version is a direct translation from the Hebrew text.

In reply to your opening comments: why didn’t Ron L. Hubbard just rehash Christianity? Why are Mormons not Jehovah’s Witnesses and why are they not Pentecostal Christians? Why are Christians not Muslims?

Personally, I think all these differing religions do nothing more than create divisions between God’s children in order that they may fight one another.

I think it is safe to say that Jesus wasn’t a Christian. I think he put God above himself, and I feel we should too.

My main concern with Christians is that all they speak of is Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, and seem to forget that God is the creator of all, including Jesus. You could even identify them with Pharaoh in that they seem to need some kind of physical idol to worship rather than the Unseen.

The commandments are the way to the eternal and in them it states that we should not worship idols. In Matthew 19:21 Jesus is reinforcing this view by asking the young man to forsake his idols (possessions and money) and follow him in the direction of God’s Kingdom.

Everything Jesus said came from God, not from Jesus, and Jesus made this claim; therefore, God is the only thing we should give praise to.

Lastly, you can believe that Jesus is God if you want, but I have faith that only God is God.

I’d be happy to read your comments

Later.

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  #52  
Old 04-08-2005, 06:19 AM
Ahmad Ahmad is offline
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Default Re: God and Jesus

Peace be upon you Dave,

Well said !

"Personally, I think all these differing religions do nothing more than create divisions between God’s children in order that they may fight one another."


There has been always only one religion "Submission to God alone", the religion named by Abraham, all the prophets added parts to it, untill God sent us the final testament, Quran.

Jesus was a Submitter, he wasn't Christian.

[3:67] Abraham was neither Jewish, nor Christian; he was a monotheist submitter. He never was an idol worshiper.

---------------------

Submission (Islam): Abraham's Religion*

[2:135] They said, "You have to be Jewish or Christian, to be guided." Say, "We follow the religion of Abraham - monotheism - he never was an idol worshiper."

No Distinction Among God's Messengers

[2:136] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters."

[2:137] If they believe as you do, then they are guided. But if they turn away, then they are in opposition. GOD will spare you their opposition; He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

[2:138] Such is GOD's system, and whose system is better than GOD's? "Him alone we worship."

[2:139] Say, "Do you argue with us about GOD, when He is our Lord and your Lord? We are responsible for our deeds, and you are responsible for your deeds. To Him alone we are devoted."

[2:140] Do you say that Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs were Jewish or Christian? Say, "Do you know better than GOD? Who is more evil than one who conceals a testimony he has learned from GOD? GOD is never unaware of anything you do."

[2:141] That was a community from the past. They are responsible for what they earned, and you are responsible for what you earned. You are not answerable for anything they did.
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  #53  
Old 04-08-2005, 07:13 AM
truebeliever truebeliever is offline
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Default Re: God and Jesus

One more time Ahmed, then you're officially a fraud and not sincere.

You claim Jesus was but a prophet...based on the New testament...i presume coz i gather you wer'nt there?

Here a a few quotes...just a few...there were dozens more but too much to type. You cannot have it both ways Ahmed. You must say the N.T is a fraud...you cannot pick and choose what you like to suit your own view of things...
----------------------------------------------------
Was Christ Simply A Prophet Or God?

A missionary working among children in the Middle East was driving her jeep down a road when she ran out of gas. She had no gas can in her car. All she could find was a potty chair. She walked a mile down the road to the nearest gas station to fill up the pot with gas. As she was pouring the gas into the tank of her jeep, a large Cadillac occupied by wealthy oil sheiks pulled up. They were absoloutly fascinated by seeing her pour the contents of the pot into the Jeep. One of them opened the window and said, "My friend and I, although we do not share your religion, we greatly admire your faith!"

I am told that in a Communist Russian dictionary Jesus is described as a "mythical figure who never existed." No serious historian could maintain that position today. There is a great deal of evidence for Jesus existence. This comes not only from the Gospels and other Christian writings, but also from non-Christian sources. For example, the Roman historian Tacitus (directly) and Suetonius (indirectly) both write about Him. The Jewish historian Josephus, born in 37A.D also writes of him.

The more texts we have, the less doubt there is about the original.

WORK WHEN WRITTEN EARLIEST COPIES TIME SPAN (YRS) No OF COPIES

Herodotus 488-428BC 900A.D 1,300 8

Thucycidides 460-400BC 900A.D 1,300 8

Tacitus 100A.D 1100A.D 1000 20

Caesars Gallic War 58-50B.C 900A.D 950 9-10

Livy's Roman History 59B.C-17A.D 900A.D 900 20

New Testament 40-100A.D 130A.D 300 5000+Greek
(Full manuscripts 350A.D) 10,000 Latin
9,300 Others

Some people say, "Jesus never claimed to be God." Indeed, it is true that Jesus did not go around saying the words, "I am God." Yet when one looks at all He taught and claimed, there is little doubt that He was conscious of being a man who's identity was God.

Authority to forgive sins: On one occasion He said to a man who was paralyzed, "Son, your sins are forgiven" (Mark 2:5) Only God can forgive sins.

Judge of the world: Christ claimed that one day he would judge the world (Matthew 25:31-32). He said He would return and sit on his thrown in heavenly glory. All the nations would be gathered before Him. He would pass judgment on them. If your Pastor claimed this you'd laugh. Clearly he is no mere man.

When the question was put to him..."are you the Christ, the son of the blessed one?" Jesus said, "I am...and you will see the Son Of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

The Jews started to stone Jesus...when he asked them why they replied..."because you, a mere man, claim to be God" (John 10:33)

When Thomas, one of His disciples, knelt down before Jesus and said, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28), Jesus didn't turn to him and say, "No, no, dont say that; I am not God." He said, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed" (John 20:29). He rebuked Thomas for being so slow to get the point.

So how can we test peoples claims? Jesus claimed to be the unique Son Of God; made flesh. There are 3 logical possibilities. If the claims were untrue, either He knew they were untrue, in which case he was an imposter, and an evil one at that. That is the first possibility. Or He did not know, in which case He was deluded; indeed, He was mad. That is the second possibility. The third possibility is that the claims were true.

C.S Lewis put it like this:

""A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic, on a level with a man who says he is a poached egg, or else He Would be the Devil of Hell. You must make you're choice. Either this man was,and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse...but let us not come up with any patronizing nonesense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to"".

Wilbur Smith, the great American writer on theological topics, said:

""The ancient world had many different devices for determining the future, known as divination, but not in the entire gamut of Greek and Latin literature, even though they used the words prophet and prophecy, can we find any real specific prophecy of a great historic event to come in the distant future, nor any prophecy of a saviour to arrive in the human race...Mohammedanism cannot point to any prophecies of the coming of Mohammed uttered hundreds of years before his birth. Neither can the founders of any cult in this country rightly identify any ancient text specifically fortelling their appearence"".

Yet in the case of Jesus he fulfilled over 300 prophecies (spoken by different voices over 500 years), including 29 major prophecies fulfilled in a single day-the day He died. His death was told in the Old Testament (Isaiah 53), and also the place of His burial and even the place of his birth (Micah 5:2).

His appearences to the disciples. Were these hallucinations? Burly fisherman, tax collecters and skeptics like Thomas are unlikely to hallucinate. Jesus appeared to His disciples on 11 different occassions over a period of 6 weeks. Furthermore, over 500 people saw the risen Jesus. Jesus could be touched, He ate a peice of broiled fish (Luke 24:42, 43) and on one occasion He cooked breakfast for the disciples (John 21:1-14). Peter says, "[They] ate and drank with Him after He rose from the dead" (Acts 10:41). He held long conversations with them, teaching them many things about the Kingdom Of God (Acts 1:3).

C.S Lewis sums it up like this:

""We are faced then with a frightening alternative. The man we are talking about was (and is) just what he said he was or else a lunatic or something worse. Now it seems to me obvious that he was neither a lunatic nor a fiend; and consequently, however strange and terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that he was and is God. God has landed on this ebnemy occupied world in human form.""

Questions Of Life. Nicky Gumble.

JUST A NOTE. I HAVE OMMITTED ALOT FOR BREVITY. T.B
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  #54  
Old 04-08-2005, 07:27 AM
get_real get_real is offline
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Ahmad:
Please respond. What are your beliefs exactly?
What do you think about Christianity and its teachings? Who do YOU say Jesus Christ is?

Though I cannot (at times) keep up with some of your stuff, I told you once before--to me, and maybe others--you come across like a 1950's door to door salesman. You shoot from both sides of your mouth.

I see you are an educated man. However, I (like others) enjoy reading these posts and just wait for someone to trip you. I do not see consistancy
in your responses on this topic: beliefs/religion/Christianity.

Please, if you will, answer the first paragraph.

Sincerely,
Helen (ger_real)
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  #55  
Old 04-08-2005, 10:44 AM
DaddyLongLeg DaddyLongLeg is offline
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Default Re: God and Jesus

Well, I’m just going to butt in on this because I’ve got something to say.

Claiming that Jesus was not God does not leave you in a position where you must renounce the New Testament as fraud! If you believe that Jesus was God, you can read the New Testament and be convinced of it. However, you can read it believing that Jesus was not God and also be convinced. Your interpretation depends on your premise!

Look at evolution; if you believe in evolution you can read an article on it a see nothing but good arguments for your belief. If you disbelieve evolution, you see nothing but speculation.

Quote:
When Thomas, one of His disciples, knelt down before Jesus and said, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28), Jesus didn't turn to him and say, "No, no, dont say that; I am not God." He said, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed" (John 20:29). He rebuked Thomas for being so slow to get the point.
This is how I see it: Jesus is saying that when you see a miracle you believe because seeing is believing, but if you believe without ever having seen a miracle, you are truly blessed; you don’t need to see it because you have rock-solid faith anyway. That is far more valuable than having seen it!

Quote:
A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic, on a level with a man who says he is a poached egg, or else He Would be the Devil of Hell. You must make you're choice. Either this man was,and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse...but let us not come up with any patronizing nonesense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to
Why, if Jesus were not the Son as God as C S Lewis puts it, would he necessarily have to be a madman or something worse? Jesus could also have been a man who simply understood the virtue of the commandments. If you really understand them you don’t think of them as rules you must follow, but as truths that free you.

Let’s take the commandment of non-adulterous behaviour. It is not adulterous to have sex with your wife. That means neither with your girlfriend or boyfriend nor with a complete stranger. If you met a partner who believes in and sees the benefits of this commandment it leaves the relationship open to building a friendship: like you do with your mates or buddies. You don’t want to have sex with them do you? And because of this you can relax and relate much better. That’s how good friendships start up in the first place! When your pre-marital partner believes in this, you never worry about infidelity; you trust them one hundred percent. That’s much more rewarding than adulterous behaviour, huh? So, you see, that commandment isn’t really a command; it is the best advice for everyone.

Now you don’t have to be God or Jesus to understand that, and no C S Lewis, it does not make you a lunatic or a Devil of Hell!

As I see it, a man who was merely a man and said the things Jesus said would make an excellent moral teacher.

Quote:
Yet in the case of Jesus he fulfilled over 300 prophecies (spoken by different voices over 500 years), including 29 major prophecies fulfilled in a single day-the day He died. His death was told in the Old Testament (Isaiah 53), and also the place of His burial and even the place of his birth (Micah 5:2).
God doesn’t sit around waiting for things to happen like we do. He sees everything forwards and backwards at once. Prophecy for God is a piece of cake. He could have foretold everything, but it wouldn’t make much sense to do that; how can you test a spirit that knows everything already?

Last but not least, I’m not rushing to anyone’s defence here, I was simply inspired to express myself.

Cheers!
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  #56  
Old 04-08-2005, 11:03 AM
Draken Draken is offline
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Quote:
Why, if Jesus were not the Son as God as C S Lewis puts it, would he necessarily have to be a madman or something worse? Jesus could also have been a man who simply understood the virtue of the commandments. If you really understand them you don’t think of them as rules you must follow, but as truths that free you.
The emphasized parts are the point here - well said, DLL!!

Quote:
commandment isn’t really a command; it is the best advice for everyone.
Exactly.

And last but absolutely not least:

Quote:
how can you test a spirit that knows everything already?
A quote from one of the most famous Sufis:

"Here's a tale: A soul was questioned by God at the gates of Heaven, "You are the same as when you left! You were blessed by a life full of opportunity - so where are the bruises and scars left by your journey?"
Jalaluddin Rumi

Well, DLL, that WAS true inspiration!
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  #57  
Old 04-08-2005, 12:08 PM
Ahmad Ahmad is offline
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New International Version

Mark 10

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good–except God alone.
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  #58  
Old 04-08-2005, 12:18 PM
get_real get_real is offline
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Quote:
Ahmad wrote:
New International Version

Mark 10

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good–except God alone.

I see, just as I thought.
Sincerely, get_real
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  #59  
Old 04-08-2005, 02:40 PM
Saturnino Saturnino is offline
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Come on, this passage is a simple use of Socratic argumentationn (with a bit of irony): Why do you call me good when only God is good...meaning, you are calling me God then !!!

Jesus was a fine user of parables and examples...he drove people to conclusions but never forced them, because accepting Him is not accomplished by use of force...he several times denied the opportunity to show off as he could easily have done.

Why ? because his missions was to die for us, not to take the earthly kingdom by force. He said He could summon hundreds of angels if he wanted. But making himself king of Israel by force would screw up the mission.

He said His kingdom was NOT from this world, meaning that he would sacrificially die and the Holy Spirit would convince people that He was God and the way to salvation...therefore opening the doors of the heavenly kingdom. Cool guy was He indeed.
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  #60  
Old 04-08-2005, 08:15 PM
nohope187 nohope187 is offline
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I've already posted on this topic before on the Christianity thread awhile ago and got some nasty PM's from a prosyletizing evangelist rapture cult nut like ephesian6, but here's my two cents again anyway. I believe Christ is the son of God and is the risen savior, but NOT God himself. Proof? How can Christ be God when it was the Father who resurrected the son? How can Christ be God when he sits at the Father's right hand? I think it was in Collosians 1:15 or 16 or somewhere in chapter one where it says Christ is the first of all creation and through him all else was created. John 3:16 says, "HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON". So, I agree with DLL and Amahd.
Hey DLL, the KJV bible was actually a direct translation from the Greeks. They fucked it all up with their multiple word meanings, hence all the other translations today. :-P
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