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  #11  
Old 05-11-2005, 10:33 AM
truebeliever truebeliever is offline
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Default Re: Snake to Draken, come in Draken...


Then we'll write a book 2000 years later saying you were a dope fiend, wife basher and child molester who also smelled...and you did'nt actually die but married a transvestite and lived happily in the Phillapines and used gene splicing to begin a pagan line of alien lizards.

I will offer no proof of my comments of you but the books will sell well and "infinite love" will solve everything.

:-P

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  #12  
Old 05-11-2005, 11:12 AM
Draken Draken is offline
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Default Re: Snake to Draken, come in Draken...

Nice. :-D
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  #13  
Old 05-11-2005, 04:11 PM
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Default Re: Snake to Draken, come in Draken...

Quote:
truebeliever wrote:
Then we'll write a book 2000 years later saying you were a dope fiend, wife basher and child molester who also smelled...and you did'nt actually die but married a transvestite and lived happily in the Phillapines and used gene splicing to begin a pagan line of alien lizards.

I will offer no proof of my comments of you but the books will sell well and "infinite love" will solve everything.

:-P
!!LOL!!

Offer no proof!! Infinite love!!

Sounds like what happened to me after spending a year in captivity on the website of a famous, oh, well, famous person.

Let's leave it at that for now!!
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  #14  
Old 05-11-2005, 08:58 PM
nakedsnake nakedsnake is offline
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Default Re: Snake to Draken, come in Draken...

Ahmad,

sorry for the late post but I was working, I see you joined the conversation welcome, and peace be upon you,
Mr. King is mistaken although a great civil rights leader King does not speak with authority when it comes to Christianity. The only men that could speak with authority when it comes to Christ would be Peter, John, James, Luke, Matthew, Mark, Jude and last but not least Paul.
Paul was a Pharisee and was in fact by his own admission opposed to Christ, he became his most loyal follower, why? because he saw him risen! The experiences that lead the disciples to claim he was risen, was just that; the disciples and enemies Paul and James had eyewitness experience's which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus.
Paul himself said; Now if Christ is preached as raised from the dead, how can some of you say, there is no resurrection form the dead? But if there is no resurrection from the dead, then Christ has not been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is without foundation, and so is your faith. 1 Corinthians 15:12-14.

The cause of the start of Christianity was the resurrection, it was not developed later on King is wrong.
The New Testament never says, nor do Christians claim that the title Son of God was only used exclusively for Jesus, The Hebrew ben and Aramic bar, "son' designate not only a male descendant but also a relationship to a community, a country, a species, it all depends on the context. You mention Psalm 2:7 which was originally meant to be for Solomon but was in reality a veiled prophecy about the true Son of God Jesus, that's why the writer of Hebrews uses that Psalm to describe Jesus as superior to the angels and to be God Himself. see Hebrews 1 (the whole chapter).
This formula was then obviously present from the roots of Christianity, Hebrews has been dated at 64 A.D.

you quote from the Quran, but I have a few questions,
Why would Caliph Uthman produce an authorized version of the Quran if the Quran had been perfectly preserved from the beginning?
were you aware that even today, there are variants between different transmitted versions of the Quran-such as the Hafs transmission and the Warsh transmission?
Since there are copies of the Quran that have variant readings, how can it be argued that there has always been "perfect unity" in the copies of the Quran?
While it is claimed that Allah preserved the Quran in infallible copies are we to conclude that Allah was incapable of accomplishing the same feat regarding all his previous revelations, like the Psalms of David and the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Do you see the inconsistency with such a viewpoint?
Paul warned of people or angels (Mohammed received his revelations by angel) changing the Gospel of Christ.
But I can't quote from the Bible because the Bible is corrupted (Muslim Viewpoint), the only parts of the Bible that agree with the Quran are valid, that my friend is a circular argument. And circular arguments are falsehoods.
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  #15  
Old 05-11-2005, 09:36 PM
nakedsnake nakedsnake is offline
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Default Re: Snake to Draken, come in Draken...

Draken,
You state Ahmad has valid points but Ahmad is claiming the exclusivity of the Quran that you claim no one has.
You are being double minded.
The nature and knowabilty of truth is crucial to the Christian faith. Christianity claims to posses the objective truth about God and about the way to God through Jesus Christ the Son of God. If truth is not objective, real and knowable, then the Christian faith is not only false but fraudulent.
Christians hold that God made himself known and knowable through the historical figure of Jesus of Nazareth.
This same Jesus claimed to be "The Truth". To see and know him is to see and know the truth, for he perfectly corresponds with truth. So the unequivocal claims of Christianity imply a certain theory of truth, namely a correspondence view of truth.

Truth can be understood both negatively and positively, that is, from what is and from what it is not.

So what did Jesus believe about himself? how did others perceive him? who was this solitary figure? Who is Jesus of Nazareth? Jesus thought it was fundamentally important what others believed about him. It was not a subject that allowed for neutrality or a less than honest appraisal of the evidence. C.S Lewis wrote (and it addressees your view perfectly);

"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about him: "I'm ready to accept him as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept his claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say.
A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic-on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg-or else he would be the Devil of Hell.
you must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, The Son of god; or else he a mad man or something worse.
You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon; or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God. But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher.
He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
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  #16  
Old 05-11-2005, 09:39 PM
truebeliever truebeliever is offline
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Default Re: Snake to Draken, come in Draken...

Here, here.

If you think about it...would people agree that the Christian faith is based around people that must to a large degree be VERY held within the confines of telling the truth? That to make up stories would make them HYPOCRITS of the worse kind?

It does not gel that the followers of Christ would be that devious. And to make the ridiculous claim that some how the Christian fath was made up to control people! I could think of a vastly superior "false" religion to keep people under the thumb...could'nt you? It's totally ridiculous to make that claim.

When i go over things in my head...i see the line of the 3 desert religions not in linear fashion but in a kind of pyramid.

Toarah on the right and Quaran on the left. Torah - masculine...Quaran - feminine (look at the rounded domes and crescent moon)...with Christ the transcendent third...the spiritual resurection. Torah and Quaran VERY practical words...and the Christ...speaking in terms of raising ones self above good and evil?

Just a thought to muddy the waters.

--------------------------------------------------
Was Christ Simply A Prophet Or God?

A missionary working among children in the Middle East was driving her jeep down a road when she ran out of gas. She had no gas can in her car. All she could find was a potty chair. She walked a mile down the road to the nearest gas station to fill up the pot with gas. As she was pouring the gas into the tank of her jeep, a large Cadillac occupied by wealthy oil sheiks pulled up. They were absoloutly fascinated by seeing her pour the contents of the pot into the Jeep. One of them opened the window and said, "My friend and I, although we do not share your religion, we greatly admire your faith!"

I am told that in a Communist Russian dictionary Jesus is described as a "mythical figure who never existed." No serious historian could maintain that position today. There is a great deal of evidence for Jesus existence. This comes not only from the Gospels and other Christian writings, but also from non-Christian sources. For example, the Roman historian Tacitus (directly) and Suetonius (indirectly) both write about Him. The Jewish historian Josephus, born in 37A.D also writes of him.

The more texts we have, the less doubt there is about the original.

WORK WHEN WRITTEN EARLIEST COPIES TIME SPAN (YRS) No OF COPIES

Herodotus 488-428BC 900A.D 1,300 8

Thucycidides 460-400BC 900A.D 1,300 8

Tacitus 100A.D 1100A.D 1000 20

Caesars Gallic War 58-50B.C 900A.D 950 9-10

Livy's Roman History 59B.C-17A.D 900A.D 900 20

New Testament 40-100A.D 130A.D 300 5000+Greek
(Full manuscripts 350A.D) 10,000 Latin
9,300 Others

Some people say, "Jesus never claimed to be God." Indeed, it is true that Jesus did not go around saying the words, "I am God." Yet when one looks at all He taught and claimed, there is little doubt that He was conscious of being a man who's identity was God.

Authority to forgive sins: On one occasion He said to a man who was paralyzed, "Son, your sins are forgiven" (Mark 2:5) Only God can forgive sins.

Judge of the world: Christ claimed that one day he would judge the world (Matthew 25:31-32). He said He would return and sit on his thrown in heavenly glory. All the nations would be gathered before Him. He would pass judgment on them. If your Pastor claimed this you'd laugh. Clearly he is no mere man.

When the question was put to him..."are you the Christ, the son of the blessed one?" Jesus said, "I am...and you will see the Son Of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

The Jews started to stone Jesus...when he asked them why they replied..."because you, a mere man, claim to be God" (John 10:33)

When Thomas, one of His disciples, knelt down before Jesus and said, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28), Jesus didn't turn to him and say, "No, no, dont say that; I am not God." He said, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed" (John 20:29). He rebuked Thomas for being so slow to get the point.

So how can we test peoples claims? Jesus claimed to be the unique Son Of God; made flesh. There are 3 logical possibilities. If the claims were untrue, either He knew they were untrue, in which case he was an imposter, and an evil one at that. That is the first possibility. Or He did not know, in which case He was deluded; indeed, He was mad. That is the second possibility. The third possibility is that the claims were true.

C.S Lewis put it like this:

""A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic, on a level with a man who says he is a poached egg, or else He Would be the Devil of Hell. You must make you're choice. Either this man was,and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse...but let us not come up with any patronizing nonesense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to"".

Wilbur Smith, the great American writer on theological topics, said:

""The ancient world had many different devices for determining the future, known as divination, but not in the entire gamut of Greek and Latin literature, even though they used the words prophet and prophecy, can we find any real specific prophecy of a great historic event to come in the distant future, nor any prophecy of a saviour to arrive in the human race...Mohammedanism cannot point to any prophecies of the coming of Mohammed uttered hundreds of years before his birth. Neither can the founders of any cult in this country rightly identify any ancient text specifically fortelling their appearence"".

Yet in the case of Jesus he fulfilled over 300 prophecies (spoken by different voices over 500 years), including 29 major prophecies fulfilled in a single day-the day He died. His death was told in the Old Testament (Isaiah 53), and also the place of His burial and even the place of his birth (Micah 5:2).

His appearences to the disciples. Were these hallucinations? Burly fisherman, tax collecters and skeptics like Thomas are unlikely to hallucinate. Jesus appeared to His disciples on 11 different occassions over a period of 6 weeks. Furthermore, over 500 people saw the risen Jesus. Jesus could be touched, He ate a peice of broiled fish (Luke 24:42, 43) and on one occasion He cooked breakfast for the disciples (John 21:1-14). Peter says, "[They] ate and drank with Him after He rose from the dead" (Acts 10:41). He held long conversations with them, teaching them many things about the Kingdom Of God (Acts 1:3).

C.S Lewis sums it up like this:

""We are faced then with a frightening alternative. The man we are talking about was (and is) just what he said he was or else a lunatic or something worse. Now it seems to me obvious that he was neither a lunatic nor a fiend; and consequently, however strange and terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that he was and is God. God has landed on this ebnemy occupied world in human form.""

Questions Of Life. Nicky Gumble.

JUST A NOTE. I HAVE OMMITTED ALOT FOR BREVITY. T.B
---------------------------------------------------
Sorry, the table is a little mixed up.
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  #17  
Old 05-12-2005, 12:00 AM
Draken Draken is offline
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Default Re: Snake to Draken, come in Draken...

Snake, I said valid points, not that I agree unreservedly with them.

I've discussed with Christians who would condemn you to Eternal Hell for your interpretation of Christianity.

You should read what I've posted on this forum first, before you think you know where I stand.

I don't believe Christ is the only Way to God. I don't care that Christians would say I'm wrong because Christ said: "No one comes to the Father but through Me."

I qouted before but I can modify it slightly to drive my final point home: the children on the Path to God drink the milk of the New Testament and understand only its literal meaning. The mature have their own understanding of its inner significance.

Those who understand what I mean understand; those who don't don't. Not my problem.

Cheers everyone!

I hope you find Truth.
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Three things are sacred to me: first Truth, and then, in its tracks, primordial prayer; Then virtue–nobility of soul which, in God walks on the path of beauty. Frithjof Schuon
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  #18  
Old 05-12-2005, 12:03 AM
Draken Draken is offline
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Default Typical...

Ciao!
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  #19  
Old 05-12-2005, 04:04 AM
truebeliever truebeliever is offline
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Default Re: Typical...

Ya know I was pondering Religion when the Lord answered with that great Simpson episode where Homer refuses to get out of bed on Sunday and forms his own religion.

He sets fire to the house and is saved by Ned Flanders.

A classic.

And nay, i refuse to accept that The Simpsons have subliminal messages.
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  #20  
Old 05-12-2005, 04:14 AM
Ahmad Ahmad is offline
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Default Re: Typical...

Peace be upon you again NS,

I want to comment on two points you raised, first the issue of Jesus being a crazy man to say these words if he wasn't a god, and also your remerk on the different versions of Quran.

1- There is a big misunderstanding that happened with God's WORD, Jesus, for this soul was sent to deliver the Gospel as uttered by God, but most of the people couldn't see the sender and were duped by Satan to think that the postman is the one who wrote the message. God says that the blind can not see the UNSEEN, which is what behind the events, behind the visible. The blind need a visible god like the children of Israel with the golden calf. Satan was smart enough to use the messengers (and prophets) as a tool to bind the people in slavery to him, i don't mean any insult here but anyone who worships Jesus, a human being, a mere mortal is actually worshipping Satan himself disguised in Jesus figure!

This happened with Ezra, Jesus and Muhammad, people idolized the messengers and became stuck in them instead of paying attention to the message thus God alone.

The early followers of Jesus were not Jewish nor Christians, they were monotheist Submitters, they were following the same creed of Abraham, Moses and all the mesengers and prophets.

To subvert the message of Jesus Satan was allowed to push the love of Jesus in the people's hearts to an extreme, he used the virgin birth (true), the miracles (true), the crucifixion (happened but after Jesus' soul was raised) as well as the resurrection (false) to create a myth of a mere mortal. Specially the torture he used it to create a trauma in order to induce an Alpha state as some call it, to simply control the minds of the followers, later these followers couldn't believe what had happened, their beloved teacher were tortured infront of their own eyes! to this day some people refuse to believe that their beloved ones died suddenly and this was the origin of the resurrection story.

The bottom line is Jesus was not better than Adam, Abraham, Moses or even Muhammad, he was just one in a long line of prophets and messengers, ironically the people idolized these mere mortals instead of worshipping God alone.

Do you know what is the tragic consequence of this idolatery of Jesus? the celebrity cult (gods and goddesses worshiped as infallible by millions of fans), the hero-worship (which is manifested in the global phenomena of worshipping the presidents and dictators), high divorce rate (since a relationship based on attributing a power, beauty or knowledge to a creature instead of God is destined to fail, it is not true love based on equality), Bullying (because of the dominant culture of dividing the people into two ranks, masters and slaves, this begins from the satanic education system that encourages the youth the youth to assume one of the two roles).

So as you can see, when the people chose one of them and raised him above humanity, the whole equilibrium was destorted, people became divided to this day. True love must be between equals, even if the male is the captain it doesn't mean he is not equal to his wife.

You will find that the subversion of the religions by Satan is systematic, the muslims now literally worship Muhammad (and Ali) besides God!.

Try to go to the top of a high building, look down and you will see the people as small as ants, imagine then that these minute creatures shose one of them to reverence and claimed he is their Creator!

[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.


---------------------

2- As for the different copies of Quran, the Khalif Uthman ordered that the Quran should be collected in one set, as before that for 19 years after Muhammad's death, there were only scattered parts of Quran, Muhammad left detailed isntructions on how to collect Quran and put it in order (since the final order is fifferent than the chronological sequence of revelation), do you think Satan didn't interefre in this crucial step? Satan inspired one of the scribes to ADD two false verses to the collected copy, these two verses exalt Muhammad (their idol), Ali was outraged because of this addition that was not found at any other scribe, what happened next is a 50 years war between the supporters of the distortion and Ali and his supporters, this ended with a temporary victory for the corrupt Muhammedeans, naturally after Ali and his family were killed his supporters idolized him (now called the Shiites and they reverence Ali and Hussein his son)! does it ring a bell? is it not the same story as happened with Jesus? trauma induced mind control.

As for the different readings (Hafs and Warsh) they only differe in diacritics which are marks designed to change the verb inflections. etc

Eventhough these differences are minimal, there is a ligitimate question, what about the two false verses and the slightly different copies? God has hidden in the text of the final testament an incontrovertible proof of authenticity, the who le text is built upon a commmoin deniminator, the prime number 19, this hidded secret kept sleeping within the text for 1400 years untill the year 1974 when God sent the messenger of the covenant Rashad Khalifa (prophesized in Malachi 3:1-3 and Quran 3:81) to reveal this miracle through him, it is intended mainly to convince the Jewish and Christians of the authenticity of the final testament and that it confirms and supercedes their books because of the imbedded proof, also it strengthens the faith of those who already believe in Quran.

For further details please check my webiste.
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