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  #41  
Old 01-14-2005, 09:04 AM
Ahmad Ahmad is offline
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Default Re: A challenge!


Peace Yeoshua,

Your clarifications make sense to me. For as submitters we don't worship anybody or anything else than God, neither Jesus nor Muhammad.

I want to ask you if you don't mind, do you revere any dead or alive saints and see their knowledge indpendent of God? or is your relationship with God direct with no intermediaries?

And do you assign power to symbols apart from God?

We call God, the Designer, which is not far from the Architect. what are the roots of freemasonary? does it have origins in the time of the righteous servant of God king Solomon? if so what happened to it during the rise of Judaism, in the time of Moses?

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  #42  
Old 01-14-2005, 09:17 AM
789 789 is offline
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Default Re: A challenge!

>>>No, we don't pray in the name of The Christ, we don't pray to anyone, we swear oaths to GATOU. Who is the God of whatever religeous persuasion the lodge is in. For the 10th time.

So, it is a man-made god. And that is what you belive in.

If you do not believe in the Bible why waste your time swearing an oath on it ? The Bible you swore on has a line in it "I am the way, the truth, and the light, no one comes to the Father but by me(Jesus)" This is very exclusive. How do you reconcile it with your all-inclusive grand architect ?

Have you even considered what book you are laying your hand on before you swore on it ? You swore an oath on a book that claims to be the revealed words of Yahweh, the one and only God, who created heaven and earth, then claim that you belong to the grand architect. Is that consistent ?


>>>Celestial Lodge Above

Celestial lodge ?! Are you able lead a good and pure enough life to qualify to enter into it ?
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  #43  
Old 01-14-2005, 09:27 AM
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Yeoshua Yeoshua is offline
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Default Re: A challenge!

At last!

Firstly Ahmad, I don't revere any Saints, I might have done had Mother Therresa been cannonised and I was a Catholic.

I assign no power to symbols other that that of God.

The roots of Freemasonry are indeed surrounding King Solomon, the Worshipful Master of a lodge stills sits upon the throne of king Solomon, who along with Hiram Abif (King Solomon's architect) are the two non religeous 'figureheads' of Freemasonry.

As for the disappearance of Freemasonry during the rise of Judaism, many believe a branch of Christianity carried on the belief system around Galilee by a sect of Christianity known as the Nazariah (meaning little fish). And that the anology of the biblical fishermen reflects the original belief of the Nazariah. Indeed I belive in parts of Iraq, there are still Islamic societies that call Christians "Nazariah".

It moreover adds weight to the theory that the Name Jesus of Nazareth is actually a misnomer as the town Nazareth didn't exist in his time. The suggestion might be made that the name Jesus Nazariah might be more accurate.
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  #44  
Old 01-14-2005, 09:33 AM
Ahmad Ahmad is offline
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Default Re: A challenge!

So, what are the symbols of God?
What do you mean by figureheads exactly? what is the status of Hiram Abif after centuries of his departure?
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  #45  
Old 01-14-2005, 09:40 AM
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Yeoshua Yeoshua is offline
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Default Re: A challenge!

Quote:
789 wrote:
So, it is a man-made god. And that is what you belive in.

If you do not believe in the Bible why waste your time swearing an oath on it ? The Bible you swore on has a line in it "I am the way, the truth, and the light, no one comes to the Father but by me(Jesus)" This is very exclusive. How do you reconcile it with your all-inclusive grand architect ?

Have you even considered what book you are laying your hand on before you swore on it ? You swore an oath on a book that claims to be the revealed words of Yahweh, the one and only God, who created heaven and earth, then claim that you belong to the grand architect. Is that consistent ?


>>>Celestial Lodge Above

Celestial lodge ?! Are you able lead a good and pure enough life to qualify to enter into it ?
789 - The belief in all Gods is man made, who else would make them? Mattell? Microsoft?

Secondly, Who says I do not belive in the bible? I just think it didn't fare very well at the hands of the Roman Catholic censors.

Penultimately, this is a circular discussion which I will clarify: I believe in God, we call God GATOU to allow any faith entry into Freemasonry.

And Finally, I do know that I will gain entry to heaven, I am a good man, with a clear conscience and pure heart. I have respect for my world and the fellow creatures I share it with.

Never above you, never below you, always equal.
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  #46  
Old 01-14-2005, 09:55 AM
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Yeoshua Yeoshua is offline
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Default Re: A challenge!

Quote:
Ahmad wrote:
So, what are the symbols of God?
What do you mean by figureheads exactly? what is the status of Hiram Abif after centuries of his departure?
Hiram Abif was the father of Freemasonry, some in fact believe he was the 'True King of Egypt'.

He was murdered by ruffians as he would not part with the secrets of Freemasonry (society never changes eh?)

A lot of conpiracists would have you believe that he is supposed to be a 'substitute' Christ as he rose from his tomb - not true, his brothers found his grave and marked it with acacia leaves, and later returned to remove his body for a proper burial.

By figurehead, I meant founder or leader.....oh hang on, I shouldn't have used the word leader as now some halfwit is going to say "hang on, I thought God was your leader"....Sorry chaps, God is God, and eggs is eggs.
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  #47  
Old 01-14-2005, 10:05 AM
Ahmad Ahmad is offline
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Default Re: A challenge!

Peace Yeoshua,

"Never above you, never below you, always equal"

Well said!

Here is my conclusions so far,

1- Worshiping one supreme God, great.

2- Having human righteous leaders, why not.

3- Our salvation is gained by resisting Satan and doing good, same as in Quran.

My only concern for now is the stress on rituals, uniforms and symbols! perhaps you may shed some light. In my religion symbols have no inherent powers in themselves, why glorify them?

As for the secrecy, the freemasons may have had suffered from persecution to the extent of creating such extreme secrecy and blood oathes.

Still studying!

Thanks for the information.

Ahmad
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  #48  
Old 01-14-2005, 10:19 AM
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Yeoshua Yeoshua is offline
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Default Re: A challenge!

Quote:
Ahmad wrote:

My only concern for now is the stress on rituals, uniforms and symbols! perhaps you may shed some light. In my religion symbols have no inherent powers in themselves, why glorify them?

Ahmad
Salaam Ahmad

I do not feel there is any reverance given to the signs or tokens used in Freemasonry, they are simply an allegorical tool, symbolising various morals or ranks. I mentioned in a post previously that the lambskin worn by a Freemason represents spititual purity.

Unlike the Christian cross, or the figure of Lord Bhudda, they have no religeous overtones.

The ONLY one I'm aware of, is the symbol that all conspiracists jump upon, and that is of the all seeing eye. Which does, in my belief represent God. All seeing all knowing. And not attached to any single monotheistic belief. In order to be able to accept all religons.
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  #49  
Old 01-14-2005, 10:35 AM
Ahmad Ahmad is offline
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Default Re: A challenge!

God has no equal, we cannot fathom His greatness. How could you represent God by an attribute of his creation, a human eye?


[42:11] Initiator of the heavens and the earth. He created for you from among yourselves spouses - and also for the animals. He thus provides you with the means to multiply. There is nothing that equals Him. He is the Hearer, the Seer.

If we accept all religions (which ofcourse have alot of satanic injections) i think the truth will surely be lost in the crowd.

For example, the Jews revere their rabbis, and follow Talmoud (ofcourse not all of them) and reject Jesus as a prophet. The Christians accept Jesus but raise him to the level of God. The Muslims do almost the same with Muhammad.

What about the false injections in their scriptures? or what scripture do you follow? what is the freemasons' law?

How can all these contradictory religions be accepted together!

Maybe the origins of freemasonry were good, but then it drifted away!.
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  #50  
Old 01-14-2005, 10:43 AM
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Yeoshua Yeoshua is offline
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Default Re: A challenge!

A fair point Ahmad,

but as I've said, the holy law which the individual follows, must be the individuals own belief.

There is nothing in Freemasonry to say "worship a Masonic God". In fact there is no masonic God.

As for the personification of a concept such as God by the 'All seeing eye', is this not similar to the traditional Christian notion of a white haired bearded man sat upon the throne of grace?
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